Greetings, I am an Atheist and have a blog site dedicated to cataloging all my observations and questions regarding the bible and Christianity. Recently, a Christian who regularly comments on a number of my posts (whiteman0o0) left a response to one of my questions that disturbed me a great deal. As someone who was raised in the church and attended Private Christian School for the vast majority of my life, I was struck by how unusual whiteman0o0’s opinion seemed, at least to me, regarding this particular issue. The issue was about whether or not everyone is born a sinner. Whiteman0o0 had earlier stated that, yes, everyone IS born a sinner. I asked him to elaborate, arguing that I believed babies and children are innocent. I used an example of an infant that dies unexpectedly in his crib of SIDS and asked whiteman0o0 if he believed that this baby would go to hell seeing that we are all born sinners and the baby would never have had the opportunity to accept Jesus as his personal savior and ask for forgiveness for his ‘sins’. Whiteman0o0 responded, stating that indeed children and babies can go to hell and his reasoning was that God doesn’t judge them for their ACTUAL lives but for the lives they WOULD HAVE lived had they not died. In other words, God creates an alternate timeline where the baby/child didn’t die and sees if they would have become a Christian or not, what sins they would have committed, etc. and sends them to heaven or hell accordingly. This scenario left me truly horrified and I am desperate to learn how many other Christians agree with whiteman0o0’s opinion.
This is the page where whiteman0o0 left his response:
I am urging, pleading with anyone that is willing, to please visit this page, read the comments (you can ignore the original post), particularly mine (DoubtingThomas426) and whiteman0o0’s, and whether you agree with him or not, please leave a comment addressing this issue. I truly appreciate it.
Thank you and I apologize for taking up space on this page with my plea.
I found your post ‘awaiting moderation’, probably because of the links in it – but it doesn’t seem like a spam comment to me.
First of all, I want to say that the ‘god delusional index quiz’ was meant to be taken with tongue in cheek, as it was clearly a bit silly (especially when the points gained for admitting to very fundamentalist notions were so outrageous). So I hope I haven’t offended any Christian readers.
So okay, have had a look at your blog and will check out the other one you linked to. Though in my vasty experience dealing with narrow-minded bigots I honestly don’t think they are open to debate. And I have no interest in having an online slanging match.
Wow, just had a look at the ‘whiteman’ blog, and even left a comment there on his abortion post.
It would have been much easier for me to say, as I thought would be the case, based on what you wrote here, that it’s people like this who give good Christians a bad name … in fact he is not only very articulate but it also sounds to me that he is trying to think through some genuine issues that are causing him problems with his faith. I could be wrong – will have to read more.
So after having had a bit more of a look on both those blogs – Doubting Thomas and Whiteman – one question still comes to mind.
Why does there have to be this constant battle between theists and atheists? Surely a ‘live and let live’ agreement is possible.
The only place I draw the line is when personal religious beliefs end up affecting legislature according to their rules and end up affecting how I – as a non-participant and non-believer in any particular religion – can live my life.
I took the quiz and am considered PROFOUNDLY DELUDED! Ha ha, but I’m a Christian so of course what would I expect. I’ve got no shame for my faith. And I’m not offended, considering the one who made the video is apparently a God hater?
I’m going to read Doubting Thomas’ link. I’m interested in Whitman0o0 answer to the question as well, because I’d like to see where in the Bible it states “the life they would have lived” comment. The funny thing about atheists is that they don’t believe in God but they are hell bent on arguing about Him. And like to talk about how shallow and narrow minded we believers are, what do they care they don’t believe it anyway! Ha ha ha. Peace.
as a scientist (by training), i appreciated the presentation of the questions in such fundamental terms – and i laughed like hell at it (scoring either a “0” or “10” like nog, depending on interpretation).
but after many conversations about faith, spirituality and religion with my father, also an engineer, as he lay dying, i came to appreciate that many people don’t blindly subscribe to such notions – when i would questions such things, Dad would sometimes say “that’s why they call it ‘faith’!”. Kind of beautiful when you look at it that way – it just doens’t work for me.
Agree that tolerance is the key. Let’s stop barking at each other, and forcing our beliefs on others through legislation, invasion and murder…
A God-hater or just a rather cyincal type, cj? I did take that quiz as being quite tongue-in-cheek myself. And I do apologise if it came across as anything other than that and of course you shouldn’t feel shamed about your beliefs. I feel embarrassed that I might be considered some weirdo ‘god hater’ for having posted it.
I’m very open to whatever people believe in a religious way, as long as it doesn’t ever affect government policy.
The funny thing about atheists is that they don’t believe in God but they are hell bent on arguing about Him.
And vice versa, wouldn’t you say?
I don’t get it myself. I think there is plenty of room for people to believe in whatever they damn well please. I only ask that they keep it out of my own personal life. Unless I invite them to do so.
Well, yeah cj. As long as everyone lets everyone else get along.
You know, I almost didn’t post this today because I knew were a new friend hanging out here… I worried about offending you in some way. But as it was a rather satirical and silly quiz I opted to do so and hoped you would see the humour in it.
And I thnk you did – I hope.
Trust me, I’ve had to deal with both fundamentalist atheists as well as fundamentalist believers … that narrow-mindedness always leaves me waving my arms about in frustration.
But personal beliefs – hey, no problem at all. For anybody. Why should they be?
Cj, azahar, the question as to why Atheists ‘waste their time’ discussing God and religion constantly comes up and never ceases to amaze me at its willful naivety. I’ve addressed this before but it seems I need to do so again here, so here it goes: My focus is Christianity because that is the religion I was indoctrinated into. As to why Atheists write or discuss religion at all, it’s really very simple. We’re bewildered as to why you believe. We are curious to learn how people are capable of such willful ignorance and self delusion. The truth is out there. It isn’t hiding from the faithful. The faithful are hiding from it. And think about it, cj, what if you knew of a whole group of people who believed in the existence of unicorns. These people worshiped these imaginary creatures. Your teenage daughter had hooked up with a guy who was part of this group and was now deeply entrenched with them as well. Would it be a waste of your time to discuss or write about how you know this religion to be false and offer evidence for your beliefs? Were those who tried to free their loved ones from the thrall of David Koresh wasting their time? Is there a more noble endeavor man can partake in than the attempt to reveal the truth to those that only know the lie? And to clarify, all the posts on my site existed LONG before the site ever did. I have been studying the bible and religion for a very long time. Over the years I made massive catalogs of notes. Eventually I transferred them to my computer, and at the urging of a friend, I created a site to categorize them all and give others a chance to read and respond to my conclusions and questions. Strange how ONLY THE RELIGIOUS think I should be doing something else with my spare time.
We’re bewildered as to why you believe. We are curious to learn how people are capable of such willful ignorance and self delusion. The truth is out there. It isn’t hiding from the faithful. The faithful are hiding from it.
And that sounds similar to all fundamentalist religious type talk, Thomas. Seriously. You are right and they are wrong. What makes you different, or indeed, right?
There is no discussion possible.
Is there a more noble endeavor man can partake in than the attempt to reveal the truth to those that only know the lie?
Oh wait, don’t all Jehovah’s Witnesses say the same thing?
Good grief, it’s just a personal belief. Which is not empirically varifiable, no matter how long you bash on about it.
Strange how ONLY THE RELIGIOUS think I should be doing something else with my spare time.
Well, I haven’t said that, but I do have to wonder why you bother … do you really think you are going to de-convert Christians, and more importantly, why is this important to you?
I posted this link over at your place. In case you missed it, it is a very intelligent and thoughtful series of interviews which actually show that faith and reason do not preclude each other.
I scored 20, and only that because I’m agnostic. So for three questions that used the word “may” (thus simply the possibility), I answered yes.
I don’t think the guy who made the video is a god-hater. He really says nothing about how he feels about any deity. He only talks about the beliefs of mortal humans, and his scoring mostly addresses how dangerous they are to the rest of us.
Given how the 9/11 bombers murdered for their Allah and how the fundamentalist right here in the US uniformly supported Dubya’s jihad in Iraq and opening the civil war the poor Iraqi civilians now endure (and which costs lives from numerous different nations), I think it’s a fair consideration, how dangerous those with unilateral beliefs are.
Raised Unitarian-Universalist, I learned how many Unitarians and people of differing faiths have been burned at the stake for not adhering to someone else’s dogma. cj, you write that atheists are “hell bent on arguing about Him.” I’m not sure they are — maybe they’d just rather not get sucked into jihads waged by the bin Ladens, ayatollahs, George Bushes, and leaders of the Christian Coalition, to name a few.
There’s nothing quite so scary in the 21st century as an individual, of whatever faith, who believes God favors him over all others and gives him carte blanche to violently pursue God’s agenda–whether interpreted from the entrails of sacrificed animals, wood pulp inked on a printing press, or tea leaves.
I was curious enough to click the link doubting thomas asked us to look at, but there were over 100 comments there already so that’s as far as I went.
I agree with everything daisyfae said and also don’t think the guy who made the video is a god hater.
now can we please go back to talking about sex instead of religion? oh wait, this isn’t my blog is it…..
Ha! nursemyra … I reckon we’d all be much better off talking about sex rather than religion. 🙂
Some very good points made, Ben. Archie also posted this quiz on his blog and quoted the person who put up the video on youtube as saying…“A STUPID video that I found — a quiz that supposedly measures how deluded by religion you are. I’m glad this hateful moron won’t be spending the next trillion years in heaven with Jesus and me! “
One wonders why he put it up if he felt like this … meanwhile, nice example of ‘Christian’ love and compassion, eh?
I’m actually quite okay about not spending the next trillion years in heaven with this person myself. And as I said on Archie’s blog, hey it ain’t every day that I’m called ‘normal’! 🙂
You all may wan’t to avoid me at parties – I got 0, but I’m an agnostic and not an atheist. Personally, I found many of the questions just as misleading as those often proffered by the intolerantly religious.
casa azahar 
I scored 5
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I scored 5 because of meditation. Other than the fact that this video was WAY too long, I loved it.
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Greetings, I am an Atheist and have a blog site dedicated to cataloging all my observations and questions regarding the bible and Christianity. Recently, a Christian who regularly comments on a number of my posts (whiteman0o0) left a response to one of my questions that disturbed me a great deal. As someone who was raised in the church and attended Private Christian School for the vast majority of my life, I was struck by how unusual whiteman0o0’s opinion seemed, at least to me, regarding this particular issue. The issue was about whether or not everyone is born a sinner. Whiteman0o0 had earlier stated that, yes, everyone IS born a sinner. I asked him to elaborate, arguing that I believed babies and children are innocent. I used an example of an infant that dies unexpectedly in his crib of SIDS and asked whiteman0o0 if he believed that this baby would go to hell seeing that we are all born sinners and the baby would never have had the opportunity to accept Jesus as his personal savior and ask for forgiveness for his ‘sins’. Whiteman0o0 responded, stating that indeed children and babies can go to hell and his reasoning was that God doesn’t judge them for their ACTUAL lives but for the lives they WOULD HAVE lived had they not died. In other words, God creates an alternate timeline where the baby/child didn’t die and sees if they would have become a Christian or not, what sins they would have committed, etc. and sends them to heaven or hell accordingly. This scenario left me truly horrified and I am desperate to learn how many other Christians agree with whiteman0o0’s opinion.
This is the page where whiteman0o0 left his response:
I am urging, pleading with anyone that is willing, to please visit this page, read the comments (you can ignore the original post), particularly mine (DoubtingThomas426) and whiteman0o0’s, and whether you agree with him or not, please leave a comment addressing this issue. I truly appreciate it.
Thank you and I apologize for taking up space on this page with my plea.
DoubtingThomas
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I got a 0 or a 10, depending on the weight that you put on “believe” and “may” in the question about the origin of the universe.
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Hi Doubting Thomas and welcome.
I found your post ‘awaiting moderation’, probably because of the links in it – but it doesn’t seem like a spam comment to me.
First of all, I want to say that the ‘god delusional index quiz’ was meant to be taken with tongue in cheek, as it was clearly a bit silly (especially when the points gained for admitting to very fundamentalist notions were so outrageous). So I hope I haven’t offended any Christian readers.
So okay, have had a look at your blog and will check out the other one you linked to. Though in my vasty experience dealing with narrow-minded bigots I honestly don’t think they are open to debate. And I have no interest in having an online slanging match.
LikeLike
Wow, just had a look at the ‘whiteman’ blog, and even left a comment there on his abortion post.
It would have been much easier for me to say, as I thought would be the case, based on what you wrote here, that it’s people like this who give good Christians a bad name … in fact he is not only very articulate but it also sounds to me that he is trying to think through some genuine issues that are causing him problems with his faith. I could be wrong – will have to read more.
Interesting stuff.
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So after having had a bit more of a look on both those blogs – Doubting Thomas and Whiteman – one question still comes to mind.
Why does there have to be this constant battle between theists and atheists? Surely a ‘live and let live’ agreement is possible.
The only place I draw the line is when personal religious beliefs end up affecting legislature according to their rules and end up affecting how I – as a non-participant and non-believer in any particular religion – can live my life.
LikeLike
Azahar,
I took the quiz and am considered PROFOUNDLY DELUDED! Ha ha, but I’m a Christian so of course what would I expect. I’ve got no shame for my faith. And I’m not offended, considering the one who made the video is apparently a God hater?
I’m going to read Doubting Thomas’ link. I’m interested in Whitman0o0 answer to the question as well, because I’d like to see where in the Bible it states “the life they would have lived” comment. The funny thing about atheists is that they don’t believe in God but they are hell bent on arguing about Him. And like to talk about how shallow and narrow minded we believers are, what do they care they don’t believe it anyway! Ha ha ha. Peace.
LikeLike
as a scientist (by training), i appreciated the presentation of the questions in such fundamental terms – and i laughed like hell at it (scoring either a “0” or “10” like nog, depending on interpretation).
but after many conversations about faith, spirituality and religion with my father, also an engineer, as he lay dying, i came to appreciate that many people don’t blindly subscribe to such notions – when i would questions such things, Dad would sometimes say “that’s why they call it ‘faith’!”. Kind of beautiful when you look at it that way – it just doens’t work for me.
Agree that tolerance is the key. Let’s stop barking at each other, and forcing our beliefs on others through legislation, invasion and murder…
LikeLike
A God-hater or just a rather cyincal type, cj? I did take that quiz as being quite tongue-in-cheek myself. And I do apologise if it came across as anything other than that and of course you shouldn’t feel shamed about your beliefs. I feel embarrassed that I might be considered some weirdo ‘god hater’ for having posted it.
I’m very open to whatever people believe in a religious way, as long as it doesn’t ever affect government policy.
And vice versa, wouldn’t you say?
I don’t get it myself. I think there is plenty of room for people to believe in whatever they damn well please. I only ask that they keep it out of my own personal life. Unless I invite them to do so.
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The funny thing about atheists is that they don’t believe in God but they are hell bent on arguing about Him.
Mostly we just do it for fun.
I’m also interested in ideas, and in why people believe one thing rather than another. But I try to do it in a positive, rather than a negative, way.
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oops – forgive the typos. today would not be a good day for me to retake the az typing test!
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Oh, and I’m not an atheist, for what it’s worth. I’m a Fredist.
And no way no day I’m going to elaborate on that because it’s just going to make me sound totally flaky … flakier?
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Ha ha, you’re right azahar the arguing goes both ways!! CAN’T WE ALL GET ALONG? 😀
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Well, yeah cj. As long as everyone lets everyone else get along.
You know, I almost didn’t post this today because I knew were a new friend hanging out here… I worried about offending you in some way. But as it was a rather satirical and silly quiz I opted to do so and hoped you would see the humour in it.
And I thnk you did – I hope.
Trust me, I’ve had to deal with both fundamentalist atheists as well as fundamentalist believers … that narrow-mindedness always leaves me waving my arms about in frustration.
But personal beliefs – hey, no problem at all. For anybody. Why should they be?
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Cj, azahar, the question as to why Atheists ‘waste their time’ discussing God and religion constantly comes up and never ceases to amaze me at its willful naivety. I’ve addressed this before but it seems I need to do so again here, so here it goes: My focus is Christianity because that is the religion I was indoctrinated into. As to why Atheists write or discuss religion at all, it’s really very simple. We’re bewildered as to why you believe. We are curious to learn how people are capable of such willful ignorance and self delusion. The truth is out there. It isn’t hiding from the faithful. The faithful are hiding from it. And think about it, cj, what if you knew of a whole group of people who believed in the existence of unicorns. These people worshiped these imaginary creatures. Your teenage daughter had hooked up with a guy who was part of this group and was now deeply entrenched with them as well. Would it be a waste of your time to discuss or write about how you know this religion to be false and offer evidence for your beliefs? Were those who tried to free their loved ones from the thrall of David Koresh wasting their time? Is there a more noble endeavor man can partake in than the attempt to reveal the truth to those that only know the lie? And to clarify, all the posts on my site existed LONG before the site ever did. I have been studying the bible and religion for a very long time. Over the years I made massive catalogs of notes. Eventually I transferred them to my computer, and at the urging of a friend, I created a site to categorize them all and give others a chance to read and respond to my conclusions and questions. Strange how ONLY THE RELIGIOUS think I should be doing something else with my spare time.
DoubtingThomas
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And that sounds similar to all fundamentalist religious type talk, Thomas. Seriously. You are right and they are wrong. What makes you different, or indeed, right?
There is no discussion possible.
Oh wait, don’t all Jehovah’s Witnesses say the same thing?
Good grief, it’s just a personal belief. Which is not empirically varifiable, no matter how long you bash on about it.
Well, I haven’t said that, but I do have to wonder why you bother … do you really think you are going to de-convert Christians, and more importantly, why is this important to you?
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I posted this link over at your place. In case you missed it, it is a very intelligent and thoughtful series of interviews which actually show that faith and reason do not preclude each other.
Best watched with an open mind…
Faith and Reason
Please get back to me with your thoughts on this.
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I scored 20, and only that because I’m agnostic. So for three questions that used the word “may” (thus simply the possibility), I answered yes.
I don’t think the guy who made the video is a god-hater. He really says nothing about how he feels about any deity. He only talks about the beliefs of mortal humans, and his scoring mostly addresses how dangerous they are to the rest of us.
Given how the 9/11 bombers murdered for their Allah and how the fundamentalist right here in the US uniformly supported Dubya’s jihad in Iraq and opening the civil war the poor Iraqi civilians now endure (and which costs lives from numerous different nations), I think it’s a fair consideration, how dangerous those with unilateral beliefs are.
Raised Unitarian-Universalist, I learned how many Unitarians and people of differing faiths have been burned at the stake for not adhering to someone else’s dogma. cj, you write that atheists are “hell bent on arguing about Him.” I’m not sure they are — maybe they’d just rather not get sucked into jihads waged by the bin Ladens, ayatollahs, George Bushes, and leaders of the Christian Coalition, to name a few.
There’s nothing quite so scary in the 21st century as an individual, of whatever faith, who believes God favors him over all others and gives him carte blanche to violently pursue God’s agenda–whether interpreted from the entrails of sacrificed animals, wood pulp inked on a printing press, or tea leaves.
LikeLike
I was curious enough to click the link doubting thomas asked us to look at, but there were over 100 comments there already so that’s as far as I went.
I agree with everything daisyfae said and also don’t think the guy who made the video is a god hater.
now can we please go back to talking about sex instead of religion? oh wait, this isn’t my blog is it…..
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Ha! nursemyra … I reckon we’d all be much better off talking about sex rather than religion. 🙂
Some very good points made, Ben. Archie also posted this quiz on his blog and quoted the person who put up the video on youtube as saying…“A STUPID video that I found — a quiz that supposedly measures how deluded by religion you are. I’m glad this hateful moron won’t be spending the next trillion years in heaven with Jesus and me! “
One wonders why he put it up if he felt like this … meanwhile, nice example of ‘Christian’ love and compassion, eh?
I’m actually quite okay about not spending the next trillion years in heaven with this person myself. And as I said on Archie’s blog, hey it ain’t every day that I’m called ‘normal’! 🙂
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You all may wan’t to avoid me at parties – I got 0, but I’m an agnostic and not an atheist. Personally, I found many of the questions just as misleading as those often proffered by the intolerantly religious.
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