“To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was you.”
~ Lewis B. Smedes
Mudhooks posted that quote on Twitter this morning and it really resonated. With my personal history of family violence and abuse as a child I am left with a lot of trust issues even after all these years, which is probably not surprising. And so I got to thinking about how crap I am at actually forgiving people. And then I wondered if forgiveness is always the best policy. I know that harbouring grudges does no good, but does one always have to forgive in order not to feel bitter or resentful about a past breach of trust? Does everyone actually deserve to be forgiven? Is it possible to truly forgive and forget?
What are your thoughts on forgiveness?
casa azahar 
You can forgive a person for something they’ve done wrong without actually telling them you’ve done so. That way, you unburden yourself from the anger and hatred you hold for them, without giving them the satisfaction of thinking they’re worthy of you even talking to them.
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I have several people I know I should forgive but I just can’t bring myself to forget the pain they caused. I’m stubborn that way and I may be that way for my lifetime. I’ve made small gestures of peace to them, tiny things that were probably more for me than for them. I can’t even forgive people who have hurt people I love, even when they have been forgiven by the actual recipient of the wrong. I deal with all of them by staying away from them, once again for my sake and in an odd way my method of retribution.
I suppose it’s egotistical to equate cutting people off entirely with some kind of “punishment” since I am probably punishing myself at the same time but a simmering Irish temper keeps repeating to me “living well is the best revenge”.
I agree with Ian but have you really forgiven someone when you don’t think “they’re worthy of you even talking to them”? Hard to say but I try not to feed my anger or let it feed on me. I’m neutral about their successes and failures but I must admit there is a tiny part of me deep inside that tends to smirk when one of them runs into one of life’s speed bumps.
My, haven’t I gotten all self analytical early on a Tuesday? 🙂
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Does forgiving someone mean that you then have to trust them again?
That could make any sort of forgiveness almost impossible for me.
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Whenever I hear the word “forgive,” it sounds to me like “It’s okay that you fucked me over, come back and do it again sometime soon, y’all hear?”
Nope nope nope.
It sounds like cutting away the part of me that was injured by the person I’m supposed to be “forgiving,” throwing that part to the four winds and saying “I didn’t need that anyway.” You run out of parts quickly that way.
The only way I can imagine forgiving someone who’s hurt me would have to involve a real, conscious apology that acknowledged the nature of the damage and an attempt at restitution. How many people ever actually do that?
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Okay, let’s all go read that quote again.
Forgiveness does not mean that you are saying the person can come and screw you over again. I also does not mean that you condone what they did. It also does not mean that you have to have any interaction with that person, or that they necessarily know that you have forgiven them. It doesn’t mean that you forget what happened or the lessons you learned from it (one of which may be that the person is not trustworthy and your best bet is to stay away from them as far as possible).
It means looking at something that happened to you, and deciding to let go of the energy tying you to the event. This is why it is liberating the prisoner, as indicated by the above quote.
I do not believe that the other person has to be involved in the work, or know that it happened. You do not have to communicate to them that you have forgiven them. It just means you are moving on beyond the injury, and there is something about doing that that allows you to stop re-traumatizing yourself with it. This is one reason I disagree with the 12-step programs that tell you to go back and “make it right” with people you have wronged. That is their work, and doing that can put you in danger, or re-traumatize you and them if they aren’t ready for it.
It is funny that this comes up and I read this just after posting on my blog today, because the story I relate there ultimately involved me doing a lot of forgiving later on in my life. Having understood and forgiven my father for the trauma he dealt me that day does not mean that I think what he did was okay. It means I understand it now, I know from what childhood hell he arose, and I choose not to allow that trauma to shape me forever. I have very little expectations from him, and ultimately I have decided to have as little to do with my sister (who is still just as manipulative at 52 as she was at 3) as possible.
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It’s always difficult to forgive one’s self. Personally, i think to forgive others and mean it is almost impossible, as it requires a certain amount of letting go. Perhaps forgiveness is the realm of a higher power, and it’s our job to seek inner recovery.
Here are two communities which may help you direct your thoughts:
http://www.values.com/
http://www.responsibilityproject.com/
Please note that the latter has a site-related opinion pop-up on occasion.
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I agree with HMH. You forgive to let yourself free, for no other reason. I wasn’t able to forgive my mother for many things until she was dead. Then I knew she couldn’t hurt me anymore. If the thing in your life are keeping you from trusting people that you should, they are caging you up. If you don’t want to use the word “forgive” with all it’s implications, try using “letting go”, especially if the people aren’t in your life anymore to hurt you. It really does free you up.
When making amends in the 12-step programs, folks often forget the second part of the step which says “unless to do so would harm yourself or others.” Drunks, being drunks, tend to do everything overboard, especially if they don’t have an experienced sponsor.
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Magic hands put it well. I can only add a less important follow up.
I’ve been ripped off, hustled and hassled badly before and probably will be again. Here is my take on this. I am not proclaiming a doctrine or dogma. Other takes and approaches on this probably have lots of value beyond my own. This is just how I try to employ the tool, the process of forgiveness. Sometimes it takes a very long time.
Forgiveness is different than forgetting. It simply is. I forgive the man who ripped us off, or the man that spoke ill of me to benefit his own interests. Knowing that the person is fraudulent contractor, or a vicious liar is information that I need to act upon, but not out of vengeance, not with a vendetta. Such actions could actually hinder a court or a community from taking real action to stop the wrongdoing by the wrongdoer at a later point.
I must forgive someone who has hurt me to keep that damage from making my mind think only of the horror, the debilitating pain, but that doesn’t require the other person to change. I can prove that easily: I can not compel a person to do much for me at all.
Forgiveness means that I will view that person without personal enmity or hatred, that I will not seek personal vengeance upon that person, that I will not make this harm a focus of my life. In a way, I fight back with forgiveness. I will let the wrongdoer hurt me no further by that injury.
That does not mean that justice might not be served by testimony in court, or the person serving jail time. That does not mean that we are to cover up, or hinder a courts’ dispensing whatever fruits of justice might be deemed useful. Remember however, courts and justice are not about punishing on your behalf, but serve (hopefully) the needs of the commonwealth — the society of people in a community of some sort.
To forgive means to so repudiate the wrong done, that I will no longer let myself harbor the wrong in such a way as I do further injury to myself — thus extending the harm, or letting the wrong-doer continue to hurt me, or driving me to go outside the law to commit wrongdoings in return. I forgive that I will be able to cut that harm down in my own soul, perhaps to deal with it in a way that makes it possible for me to contribute to ending the wrongdoing.
Sometimes, that sort of forgiveness is a rich punishment upon the wrong doer itself. After all, hurting me is the desire of the wrongdoer.
I would point to the example of a woman (Liz Seccuro) who was drugged and raped at UVA. She was largely ignored by authorities when it happened — another shameful wrong in addition to the horrific violence visited upon her by her assailant. The good ol’ boy system at work, and hurting women in the worst of possible ways.
Many years later, the guy who violated her, confessed and apologized for his actions. This was apparently part of a twelve step process to deal with his drinking problem. That confession and apology did not, and should not have hindered her from doing what she did at that point.
She called the cops, gave them the evidence and testified at the man’s trial. He was sent to prison and hopefully we are safer for it. Yes, Mrs. Seccuro did choose to forgive, but she also participated in the Justice systems’ prosecution of the man.
Forgiveness was not a rite of absolution, nor did it give the jerk a pass of any sort in court. Mrs. Seccuro made a decision to let this man’s evil not dominate her life in a way that hindered her from living her life and helping other victims band together and seek to recover physically and emotionally. She is still a noted activist helping other campus rape victims around the U.S. I personally have a lot of admiration for her. I really do regard her as a hero of our times.
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i think you have discussed this subject in a very useful way.
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I’m not entirely sure where forgiveness figures into the way this lady dealt with her rapist — which I think was the way he deserved — since she made him pay.
“Forgiving” a debt means telling the debtor that he doesn’t have to pay for what he did, took or damaged, that there will be no penalty for failing to pay, and that it is okay with you if he does not pay. If the moral equivalent involves anything more nuanced than that, I’m lost.
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That is not the definition of forgiving that applies here. I do practice such “debt forgiveness” too but that is totally different. Such forgiveness (useful as it is sometimes) is a mechanism to facilitate further commerce practices and nothing more. How could the jerk in this example ever repay or compensate fully? It is impossible. There is no nuance here, and you are absolutely right to reject the appropriateness of such debt forgiveness in such an instance.
The type of forgiveness of which I speak is defined as refusing to allow the injury done by the injurer to continue to further debilitate me, or drive me to engage in the same or worse behavior to exact revenge or justify my own actions towards others or even myself. It is a forgiveness that doesn’t much involve the wrongdoer (it may, but it doesn’t have to), nor really impacts the accountability of the wrongdoer before a court or community that will judge and punish to best serve the interests of the society, not me. I find it hard to practice myself.
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Forgiveness is only “right” when it is from the heart and when the person who forgives feels that it serves a greater purpose. Some people are able to forgive the person who committed even a most horrible offense.
My belief is that you are not forgiving the act but the person who committed the act. Forgiveness doesn’t necessarily mean that an act is forgivable. There are many ways and many reasons to and not to forgive.
Sometimes the forgiven has shown the forgiver that they have grown and accepted responsibility for their actions… As in the case of the Virk family who have forgiven and accepted into their lives one of the killers of their daughter Reena, Warren Glowatski.
That didn’t happen right away. At first, he was unable tor unwilling to accept his responsibility. http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/jun/21us3.htm
But over time, he understood just what he had done and what a terrible thing it was. He apologised and the family accepted that apology. It isn’t something a lot of people would do.
“they needed to forgive Mr. Glowatski so he could make the most of his young life and also so that he and his wife could release some of the anger that had built up inside of them.” Mr. Virk said “if we didn’t forgive him he’d carry a heavy heart around with him for the rest of his life.”
Mrs. Virk said “ Hopefully with what we were able to do with Warren (Glowatski) it will allow him to move on, to let go of his nightmare.” http://www.accidentaljurist.com/featured_topics/display_e.asp?ID=13
They haven’t, and have stated it is unlikely that they will ever, forgive the mastermind of the horrific crime, Kelly Ellard. She has shown no remorse, no acceptance of her role or even that she had any involvement.
No one should expect to be forgiven and an apology should never be given with the expectation of forgiveness. Far too often, you hear of “apologies” such as “I’m sorry that I was misunderstood” or “I’m sorry that you chose to see this as something bad….”. Those aren’t apologies.
An apology can only be an unconditional statement from the heart.
A study in a good apology can be seen, to my mind, anyway, the apology from the Prime Minister to the Native People of Canada for the Residential Schools. He didn’t qualify his apology on behalf of former governments and the people of Canada. He made the apology from his own party and outlined all the wrongs that were done. There were no disclaimers…. He didn’t point the finger at particular former governments or particular individuals.
There were a lot of Native People who accepted the apology and that was all they have been waiting for. There were some who were disappointed because they thought that an apology would heal them and it didn’t. There were others who felt that an apology wasn’t enough and others who felt that nothing that will ever be “enough”. Some may forgive, even some of the survivors ho had the most horrendous things done to them. Others may never forgive.
It is their right.
Apologizing was a responsibility.
Of course, in life there are always going to be people who will never forgive even the most innocent transgression. They will never accept even the most abject apology. I think that the second quote that I posted spoke to those people even more than to those who have the most to forgive.
“To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was you.” Lewis B. Smedes
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“A study in a good apology can be seen, to my mind, anyway, the apology from the Prime Minister to the Native People of Canada for the Residential Schools. He didn’t qualify his apology on behalf of former governments and the people of Canada. He made the apology from his own party and outlined all the wrongs that were done. There were no disclaimers…. He didn’t point the finger at particular former governments or particular individuals.”
This wasn’t clear enough… He made the apology on behalf of all Canadians, the government, and his party for all the wrongs done… unconditionally and without qualification.
http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ai/rqpi/apo/pmsh-eng.asp
It still moves me and I don’t like Harper, particularly.
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That was a very classy utterance, and not the sort of thing one usually hears from politicians. It’s also a perfect model of what I would consider an adequate apology: that is, one that fully recognizes the natire of the harm done and expresses the will to refrain from doing the same kind of harm in future. There is at least some attempt at commitment to actions that might repair the damage done.
Just think: when was the last time someone who injured you came even close to this, yet expected to be given a free pass nonetheless?
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Yes… Many people say “Well, I apologized and they still aren’t satisfied!” when the apology was “I’m sorry you got bent out of shape over this.”
Many people, especially politicians, just don’t understand the concept of “apology”.
The Harper apology says “This is what we did. This is what happened as a result. We fully understand the impact of our actions and decisions, who was hurt, how they were hurt, and the wider implications of our actions and we are willing to say this publicly and without reservation. We promise it won’t happen again and with your help and guidance, we commit ourselves to efforts to heal the wrongs of the past.”
In case anyone didn’t see the apology at the time, the elderly lady in the blue dress who got the huge cheer at the beginning was the oldest surviving former student, 104 year-old Marguerite Wabano. Also present was the youngest former student, 17 year-old Crystal Merasty.
Phil Fontaine, the Grand Chief of the Assembly of First nations was also a former student and abuse victim.
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“A study in a good apology can be seen, to my mind, anyway, the apology from the Prime Minister to the Native People of Canada for the Residential Schools. He didn’t qualify his apology on behalf of former governments and the people of Canada. He made the apology from his own party and outlined all the wrongs that were done. There were no disclaimers…. He didn’t point the finger at particular former governments or particular individuals.”
I remember this process going on. I followed it on Radio Netherlands. Of course the U.S. news outlets didn’t think it rather newsworthy.
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The US has a very different attitude about its own First Nations. Their history is more confrontational than the history with our Native Peoples. It also likes to ignore such things because of the change it might actually have to face up to its responsibility for having decimated huge populations of its Native Peoples in its land-grabs.
Of course, there are Canadians who will object to the discussion of Treaty issues and other compensation on the basis that “They lost the war”. The seem to think that, because many US First Nations lost their territory as a result of a defacto war against them (especially in the West), Canada’s Native peoples did, too.
In fact, (except in the case on the Metis people) the First Nations in Canada were never “subjected” during an armed conflict. In fact, because of their assistance during the Revolutionary War, some nations were seen as allies and honoured as such with land grants when they arrived as Loyalist refugees.
Canada signed treaties and has generally respected the treaties as true legal documents. In some cases, it has not completely fulfilled its obligations but unlike the US which basically tore up its treaties and ran people off the lands they were given, Canada does make an effort to respect the treaties it signed.
Where it is only JUST starting to make headway is in dealing with smaller groups of people with whom it did not sign treaties with and who were pushed off their traditional lands and were never compensated. In past generations, there was no effort and, indeed, no intention to ever have to deal with non-treaty nations.
In fact, the Metis people won a landmark case in the Supreme court which promises to lead the way to recognition of their rights as a Nation. Metis, for those who aren’t familiar with the word, are the mixed blood peoples who resulted from the very earliest contact between the fur traders and the Native peoples.
“Prior to Canada’s crystallization as a nation in west central North America, the Métis people emerged out of the relations of Indian women and European men. While the initial offspring of these Indian and European unions were individuals who possessed mixed ancestry, the gradual establishment of distinct Métis communities, outside of Indian and European cultures and settlements, as well as, the subsequent intermarriages between Métis women and Métis men, resulted in the genesis of a new Aboriginal people – the Métis.”
http://www.metisnation.ca/who/index.html
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Here are the apologies on behalf of other groups and organizations to the Aboriginal people of Canada: http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ai/rqpi/apo/index-eng.asp
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Wow, what a response! So is the difference between “forgiveness” and “letting go” that the former involves the wrongdoer?
“My belief is that you are not forgiving the act but the person who committed the act.”
Perhaps understanding why the person committed the act(s) is enough. After not speaking to my mother for about ten years I found myself thinking about her on my 30th birthday. It occured to me that when she was 30 she had four children, an alcohol problem and an abusive alcoholic husband. All of this back in the 60’s when nobody talked about such things, so she must have felt pretty isolated. And the question I asked myself was if I thought I would have behaved any better in her situation … and I honestly couldn’t say that I would have. And so I picked up the phone and called her. I don’t think I forgave her as much as understood her. And yes, she was also one of those unfortunate children who grew up in the dreaded Residential Schools after her mother died when she was 5. So, you know, who ever taught her about mothering?
Likewise, my father grew up in a small isolated town in Newfoundland and was habitually beaten by the nuns at school, as well as at home by his own father. None of this excuses what they did later on to their own children, but it showed me at the time that pointing the finger of blame was pretty useless because you’d have to go back generations and many centuries to find the “source” of it all. And even if that were possible, would there really be any point?
By the time my parents died I was on friendly terms with both of them, though I rarely saw them, especially after I left Canada. And when they died … nothing. Of course it was sad, but I didn’t – and don’t – miss them. And as I looked back on their pathetic and wasted lives I didn’t feel any satisfaction that they’d got their comeuppance in the end. I simply didn’t care anymore.
Harder for me is forgiving anyone who has fucked me around and/or hurt me as an adult. In fact, I can’t think of one instance of forgiving someone who has done so. In some cases I have understood their “reasons”, though as with my parents, this did not excuse them. And in almost every case, the “Get Smart” doors (remember those?) slammed firmly shut and they were never given a second chance to do it again. Some of these people I am still on civil/polite terms with, but only when forced to associate with them.
It’s been my experience that apologies are mostly insincere and are mostly about excuse making.
I like the idea of “letting go” so as not to bear a grudge and continue reopening old wounds. To move on. But I find this works best for me if I never have to see or hear from the shitbag ever again.
“Never harbour grudges; they sour your stomach and do no harm to anyone else.” ~ Robertson Davies
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Harder for me is forgiving anyone who has fucked me around and/or hurt me as an adult. In fact, I can’t think of one instance of forgiving someone who has done so. In some cases I have understood their “reasons”, though as with my parents, this did not excuse them. And in almost every case, the “Get Smart” doors (remember those?) slammed firmly shut and they were never given a second chance to do it again. Some of these people I am still on civil/polite terms with, but only when forced to associate with them.
Yes, I remember the Get Smart doors. We used to watch this show regularly. My sister wanted to grow up and be a spy like Barbara Feldman’s character, “99.”
I generally prefer to walk away from people like this today. I figure as an adult that I have the right to turn around and walk away from people who screw with me. I also learned to fire folks like this quickly if they were working for me.
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For years, I used to say that “I regret” that because my birth father did this or didn’t do that it affected me or denied me the right to my larger family… that I was raised without him…. that I had abandonment issues.
It wasn’t until I was out visiting my aunt in Iowa for the first time and said “I regret that my father cut me off from his family and I am only just now finding you all.”
She turned to me and said “Why do YOU regret this? YOU didn’t do anything to regret. You were the victim in this! You can be angry and you can be sad but you have NOTHING to regret!”
I suddenly realized that I was accepting the blame for what was someone else’s actions. It was like a weight lifted from me.
There was no blame on my part and my father was dead by then. I understood a lot more about WHY he was who he was. While I would never be able to tell him to his face how angry I was… what exactly had twisted me up inside… I was able to forgive him in my heart.
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I have been able to “forgive” and “let go” many things in my life but that doesn’t mean that I always do.
It depends on the circumstances and the scope and the impact and the willingness of the other person to accept responsibility and my willingness to take another chance.
As you know, recently, I had a situation where there was a conflict between a friend and me. People said they couldn’t understand why, when my friend called me up out of the blue and reopened our friendship, that I would simply accept, especially since there was no “apology”.
I tried to explain that I love my friend and sometimes, love means accepting, without prejudice, an entree back into their life. This wasn’t to say that there wasn’t trepidation on my part. I preferred to take it one day at a time and be open to the possibility that the past was behind us.
I was willing to go on trust that we would mend our relationship. We did. She didn;t need to because I felt it in my heart, but the other night she apologised. I had already, in my heart, forgiven her ages ago.
What made it more meaningful was that she and my other friend had a falling out a couple of months ago and he was really hurt…. and was unable to let it go. Eventually, my ability to forgive our mutual friend became too painful for him. He broke off with me, as well.
The night my friend apologised to me, she emailed him with a heartfelt letter. They were able to mend the fence. The next night, I got an email from him apologizing to me, too.
Her being able to overcome her anguish over what happened between up allowed her to do the same with him.
It is, again, my old analogy of dropping even a tiny stone into the water. You never know how one action will affect anything the ripples come in contact with. The breakdowns and reconnections between us impacted all of us and I felt that, in refusing to throw my own stones in the water and to absorb the ripples, it allowed them both to reflect on their own actions.
I am happy to have two people I love bak in my life.
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I’ve let people back into my life who treated me shabbily — in ways I never understood and for which they never made themselves fully accountable. And damn if they didn’t do it again, regardless of whatever sentiments they might have expressed.
So enough is enough, in my experience. Some people get happy endings, some don’t. By the time you’re old enough to vote, I think you know pretty well what kind of luck you have, or at least how much more abuse you’re prepared to tolerate.
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Of course, that doesn’t mean I am prepared to forgive anybody any thing. There are people I have never forgiven and try as I might, I can’t let it go.
My ex husband, for instance, for dumping me for the “office bicycle” while all the while concerned about what people thought of me (as if I was some crazed lunatic), as well as for having discussed personal things told him in confidence, which I never thought he would divulge, with his friend and –worse– the Catholic Marriage Tribunal (neither of us Catholic but the “bicycle” is).
Oddly enough, I rarely dream about him and if there is a dream where he is there, I have only once seen him.
Meanwhile, the other woman who he married in a heart-beat, I dream about all the time and while in real life I hate with a passion, I have forgiven repeatedly in my dream-world. I even get along with her very well in my dreams.
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